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Why the National Science Foundation is ripping monitoring instruments out of the ocean
A spokesperson for the National Science Foundation pointed to a National Academies of Science, Engineering, and Mathematics report as justification for the 'descoping,' but a co-chair of that group said they never wanted to see the program disbanded.
Brandin Podziemski sends powerful message in graduation speech at his alma mater
Warriors guard Brandin Podziemski returned to Wisconsin in late May to deliver the graduation speech at St. John’s Northwestern Military Academy.
Google Search adding profile pages for websites and creators
Google today announced “Search profiles” as a new way for website owners and creators to “shape their presence on Search.”
Belkin’s new Joy-Con grips also boost the Switch 2’s battery life
The Charging Grip sticks a 10,000mAh battery to the back of the handheld while making the Joy-Cons easier to hold.
Windows is back on the Microsoft menu
At its annual Build developer conference, Microsoft put Windows front and center.
Newcastle Announce Matt Targett News After 2025-26 Season
Newcastle United confirmed on Tuesday that defender Matt Targett will leave the club following the expiry of his contract at the end of June. The full-back was named on the club’s retained list for summer 2026, with Newcastle announcing that four more senior players will depart after Kieran Trippier and Emil Krafth had already been […]
Yankees' Giancarlo Stanton: Ruled out for road trip
Yankees' Giancarlo Stanton: Ruled out for road trip
With Oval Office replica and skyline views of Chicago, Obama's new museum is political and personal
Former President Barack Obama’s influence in his presidential museum runs deep, from the Chicago location to the textured stone adorning its dramatic tower, art installations and a striped reading chairs that resemble ones in his own home
Apple Arcade just got four new games, with more coming soon
Apple Arcade just added four new games to its library of over 200+ titles, and it has announced five more that will arrive in the coming month.
What will it take to get a vaccine for the Ebola strain driving the current outbreak?
There is an effective vaccine for Ebola — but not for the variety spreading rapidly in the Democratic Republic of Congo. Trials are going on for several candidates. How long will it take?
'Grey's Anatomy' star talks future amid cast exits: Every show 'gets canceled someday'
'Grey's Anatomy' actor Jason George has revealed he's returning to the show after the cast exit saw Kim Raver and Kevin McKidd leave the series: Every show 'gets canceled someday,' George said.
Utah Medical Board scolded for going rogue with AI criticism
In this edition of STAT Health Tech: An update on the Utah pilot that uses a chatbot to renew drug prescriptions, AI scribes for patients, and more.
Scientists uncover a new hiding spot for HIV
An Ebola update, Trump to strip job protections of NIH officials, and more health news from Morning Rounds
Madonna Turns Times Square into Night Club, Previews New Album to Kick Off Pride Month at Surprise Concert: 'C'mon, Gays!'
Madonna turned New York City's Times Square into a vibrant dance floor to preview 'Confessions II' to kick off Pride Month in partnership with Grindr. She took the stage in a glamorous pink corset paired with coordinating stockings and silver lace-up boots to perform songs from the new album.
The price of Nvidia RTX Spark PCs is going to hurt
Here’s what we know so far about price and launch dates for these upcoming premium computers, which have been designed for an agentic AI world.
Lehigh Valley Political Pulse: Gridlock, budgets and midterm politics shape summer outlook
With Memorial Day behind them, lawmakers are heading toward summer recess amid questions about what, if anything, they will be able to accomplish before voters return their attention to the fall elections.
L.A. Dance Project's 'City of Dance' puts free dance in public spaces
Choreographer Benjamin Millepied's L.A. Dance Project is taking its work to the streets of Los Angeles over a period of two weeks with free performances at LACMA's David Geffen Galleries, Hollywood Forever Cemetery and Hollyhock House at Barnsdall Art Park.
How Americans got hooked on “drive-thru” healthcare
When did getting a prescription start to feel like ordering at McDonald’s?
Vote in our L.A. Sports Hall of Fame (USC edition)
Introducing the L.A. Times Sports Report Hall of Fame, where readers vote for Hall of Famers in various categories.
Shokz upgraded its open earbuds with better sound and a lighter design
Upgraded earbuds that don’t completely block the world around you.
Skokie trustees raise entertainment tax, apply it to Netflix and other streaming services
It’s about to become slightly more expensive to stream television and music in Skokie. The Skokie Board of Trustees voted unanimously on Monday to raise the village’s Amusement Tax and expand its scope to apply to any “video streaming, audio streaming, or remotely accessed online games” that residents use on a rental or subscription basis, […]
People taking common sleep drug may not realize they're too impaired to drive, study finds
A study found quetiapine reduced obstructive sleep apnea events but tripled attention lapses and impaired driving the next morning, researchers say.
Presidential museum showcases political and personal sides of Obama with sprawling community campus
CHICAGO (AP) — Former President Barack Obama’s influence in his presidential museum runs deep, from the location on Chicago's South Side to textured stone adorning its dramatic tower to striped reading chairs that are similar to ones in his own home.
Presidential museum showcases political and personal sides of Obama with sprawling community campus
Former President Barack Obama’s influence in his presidential museum runs deep, from the Chicago location to the textured stone adorning its dramatic tower to art installations and a pair of striped reading chairs in the library that are similar to the ones he owns.
Zombie Blairites still have British politics in their grip – it’s time to break free
Tony Blair’s departure as PM should have prompted a fresh start for Labour. But Starmer’s sad, backward-looking government remains in his thrall, says Guardian columnist Aditya Chakrabortty
Google AI Edge Gallery launches to macOS
In addition to Google AI Edge Gallery, the company also released the Gemma 4 12B model and the Google AI Edge Eloquent dictation app for the Mac.
UNC vs. USC: Biggest strengths, weaknesses and players to watch
The Diamond Heels host USC in a best-of-three super regional with a trip to Omaha on the line. Here are USC’s players to watch and key strengths.
Report details Apple’s plan to use Nvidia chips for the Gemini-powered Siri
A new report from The Information shares fresh details on how the new Gemini-powered Siri will work under the hood. Here are the details.
Orange County business owner supplied Iran with U.S. technology, federal prosecutors say
A Newport Coast man running a business out of Iran was arrested and charged with violating federal law Wednesday after prosecutors say he spent years illegally importing American technology into the country, including to Iran's nuclear establishment, without notifying the U.S. government.
Trump strips job protections from 8,000 senior federal workers
The move reclassifies thousands of employees, making it easier to fire them for any reason. Critics say it could politicize the civil service.
Nintendo confirms it will sell a new Switch 2 with replaceable battery in the EU
Right now, replacing a Switch 2 battery is a multi-step process.
Ohio Senate passes resolution to put voter photo ID amendment on Nov. ballot
The Ohio Senate has passed a resolution that would put an amendment on the November ballot, one to require voters to show photo ID at the polls.
Ohio GOP leaders differ on whether child marriage should be a 'debate'
Ohio's top Republican legislative leaders differ on whether child marriage deserves a "debate" at the Statehouse.
Quentin Tarantino rips modern movies from Hollywood's 'flavorless sausage factory,' would 'rather read a book'
Quentin Tarantino slammed contemporary movies, as he called Hollywood a 'flavorless sausage factory' — but named a few recent films he actually liked.
Trent Williams thinks 2027 season will "probably" be his last
Trent Williams signed a two-year, $50 million contract this offseason, with $37 million fully guaranteed.
Danielle Fishel and Will Friedle open up about 'sad' rift with 'Boy Meets World' costar Ben Savage
Danielle Fishel and Will Friedle are opening up about their falling out with 'Boy Meets World' costar Ben Savage, whom they say declined to cohost their rewatch podcast in 2022, and has since gone silent.
Sharon Stone knew her marriage was 'over' when husband questioned her getting mastectomy despite massive tumor
Actress Sharon Stone said she knew her marriage was finished when her then-husband was 'furious' with her decision to get a double mastectomy after doctors found tumors in her breasts: 'He was done with me then.'
Did the Patriots overpay for A.J. Brown?
Four years after the Eagles gave up a first-round pick and a third-round pick to acquire receiver A.J.
Google Photos for Android rolling out saved Stickers folder
After introducing custom stickers in February, Google Photos for Android now saves and stores everything you've created in a folder.
U.S. Congressman tells Endeavor Health to stop retaliating against unionizing nurses
Democratic Rep. Jesus “Chuy” Garcia is calling on Endeavor to reinstate two nurses who were allegedly fired from Evanston Hospital and to respect workers rights to organize.
U.S. Congressman tells Endeavor Health to stop retaliating against unionizing nurses
Democratic Rep. Jesus “Chuy” Garcia is calling on Endeavor to reinstate two nurses who were allegedly fired from Evanston Hospital and to respect workers rights to organize.
‘SNL’s’ Marcello Hernández to host 2026 ESPYs as show leaves L.A.
Marcello Hernández will host the 2026 ESPY Awards, which are are leaving L.A. for New York after more than 25 years.
Rams offer free exchange for recently purchased Jared Verse jerseys
When the Rams traded for Myles Garrett, they sent one of their top young players to Cleveland as part of the deal.
North Hempstead town board rejects bid to strip politics from social media posts, mailers
Democrats and Republicans have sparred over including national political discourse on the town level.
Top 10 Original films and series on Prime Video: See the weekly rankings
From action-packed films to buzzy series, here are the Original titles Prime Video members watched most from May 25-31.
Politics: What’s Life Like For The Government Employees Still Working?
More than 300,000 federal workers have left government service since the start of the second Trump administration.Some were laid off by the administration. Some took buyouts. Some walked out. The cuts hit every major agency — from the State Department to the Justice Department.That doesn’t mean things have been easy for those still working for the government. Last week, the Office of Personnel Management proposed requiring all federal employees to sign non-disclosure agreements that would prevent them from sharing internal government information.We sit down to talk about how those cuts are affecting the workers who remained.Find more of our programs online. Listen to 1A sponsor-free by signing up for 1A+ at plus.npr.org/the1a.
People with cancer or HIV could lose Medicaid under new work rules, advocates say
Adults on Medicaid will be required to work 80 hours per month. The Trump administration says people who are sick will have to prove they are too sick to work to be exempt from the new work rules.
Jennifer Garner reveals how 'upheaval' from Ben Affleck divorce impacted her career
Jennifer Garner says the end of her marriage to Ben Affleck led to such an 'upheaval' in her family life that she 'hardly worked' for years.
The Supreme Court’s new decision tilting the midterms toward Republicans, explained
The Court’s new gerrymandering decision is tough to explain, unless you think the justices are GOP partisans.
Martin Bashir recalls being 'gobsmacked' by Michael Jackson telling him he slept in the same bed as children
Journalist Martin Bashir appears in the new Netflix documentary 'Michael Jackson: The Verdict,' in which he details filming the controversial 2003 special 'Living With Michael Jackson.'
Reds recall Marte from Triple-A Louisville, send down Friedl
The Reds recalled Noelvi Marte just days after adding Edwin Arroyo, both from the Triple-A Louisville Bats.
In race for Pelosi's seat, her famed political influence was a factor
Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D-San Francisco), 86 and retiring, is still a political influence in the Bay Area, as seen by her endorsement of her replacement.
John Ternus scaled back Apple’s Vision products roadmap: report
Ming-Chi Kuo just shared an update on Apple’s future Vision products that scales back the lineup—a shift reportedly authorized by John Ternus.
In the chase for stadium dollars, Tampa Sports Authority wants to prioritize Bucs over Rays
The Tampa Bay Buccaneers and the Tampa Bay Rays are hoping to strike stadium deals.
Amazon now generates images of fake products in one of the dumbest uses of AI yet [Video]
AI can be useful in a lot of places, but there are many scenarios where it doesn’t make sense. Amazon,...
Takeaways from the California gubernatorial primary election
Money can't buy love. The gubernatorial glass ceiling remains intact. California voters show — again — that boring can be beautiful. Five takeaways from the gubernatorial primary.
‘Galaxy Z Fold 8 Ultra’ confirmed, likely leaving Samsung’s most interesting foldable with a boring name
Samsung is planning two Galaxy Z Fold 8 models for launch this year, and one is confirmed to have “Ultra”...
Amazon’s search bar will invent AI-generated products you can’t buy
You can search for products that look like the fake images.
Paris match a chance to grow rugby league
Wigan Warriors' trip to Paris to face Catalans Dragons will be a perfect stage to showcase rugby league to a wider audience, says Oliver Partington.
Report: Cardinals will not trade Josh Sweat
Speculation about edge rusher Josh Sweat's future with the Cardinals has picked up over the course of his absence from the team's offseason program, but a report on Wednesday tosses some cold water on thoughts of a trade.
Scientists lose critical climate record as ocean observatory will go dark under Trump funding cuts
An expert said it’s a crippling loss of information.
How to watch the 2026 NBA Finals on Prime Video around the world
The New York Knicks will face the San Antonio Spurs, concluding Prime Video's inaugural season of global NBA coverage.
Dion Dawkins And Wegmans Teach Kids Healthy Eating And Activity!
In partnership with Wegmans, the Buffalo Bills invited St. Lawrence Catholic to the Wegmans Conference Center in Rochester, NY as part of the Play 60 Charged Up By Wegmans Field Trip Grand Prize! The event included an hour of physical activity stations as
These iPhones, iPads, Macs may not support Apple’s new software
iOS 27, iPadOS 27, and macOS 27 will be unveiled next week, but certain iPhone, Mac, and iPad models might not support the new software.
Scientists lose critical climate monitoring in oceans along nation’s coastlines in wake of Trump funding cuts
In what a scientist called "a crippling loss of information," the Trump administration is dismantling a vital $386 million network of ocean sensors, including Oregon and Washington's coast.
Microsoft and OpenAI broke up — now they’re ready to fight
“We have to prove that we can do everything that we need to from the ground up,” said AI chief Mustafa Suleyman.
How 'Avatar: The Last Airbender' season 2 delivers Toph and 'Fire Nation succession' (exclusive)
On set for 'Avatar: The Last Airbender' season 2 as the cast and crew preview what's to come (and look ahead to season 3).
Meta is trying to sell AI agents to businesses in latest effort to diversify away from ads
The Meta Business Agent will be included in the company's Meta One paid subscription offerings.
A first look at Microsoft’s Surface Laptop Ultra and Surface Dev Box
Microsoft has focused on performance, battery life, and display for its Surface Laptop Ultra.
'Survivor 50' players name the best moment of the season
'Survivor 50' players name the best moment of the season, and while one clear winning answer emerges, get ready for a few twists in the replies.
Ted Danson will 'apologize for the rest of my life' for infamous blackface performance at Whoopi Goldberg roast
Ted Danson recalls preparing for the infamous roast of Whoopi Goldberg in 1993. He knew immediately that it hadn't gone well.
Why Anna Faris thought she'd never do another 'Scary Movie': 'A concession of my soul'
Anna Faris never thought she'd return to the 'Scary Movie' franchise, fearing 'a concession of my soul.' Now, she tells EW that coming back as Cindy Campbell after 20 years has been a 'huge gift.'
Jason Sudeikis calls dating 'daunting' following Olivia Wilde split in rare comment about personal life
Jason Sudeikis finds dating 'daunting,' he says, six years after he and Olivia Wilde ended their engagement.
Amateur sleuth exposes basic blunder in scores of cancer studies
Scientists at Cambridge, Oxford, Stanford and other universities appear to have accidentally used the wrong ingredient in their experiments
Lions add former Dolphins GM Chris Grier to front office
Former Dolphins General Manager Chris Grier has found a new job in Detroit.
News | Soundstage landlords cater to new entertainment platform: the cellphone
Sunset Studios launches prebuilt sets for fast-turn, short-form series
SFA business students gain global edge through immersive study abroad tour of Spain and Portugal
NACOGDOCHES, Texas –– Nearly 50 students from Stephen F. Austin State University’s Nelson Rusche College of Business participated in an intensive, faculty-led study abroad program in Spain and Portugal May 10-21.Led by Dr. Matthew Lindsey, chair of the Department of Management and Marketing, and Dr. Mikhail Kouliavtsev, chair of the Department of Economics and Finance, the experiential learning trip bridged classroom business theory with real-world international operations across the Iberian Peninsula.
The cult of objectivity has broken consciousness science
With 22 competing theories and no consensus in sight, the science of consciousness is lost. In this exclusive IAI interview, Berkeley psychedelics researcher and bestselling author of a new book on consciousness Michael Pollan insists that even though consciousness lies beyond traditional forms of scientific investigation, we should resist becoming dualists who see it as something radically different from ordinary stuff in the world. Instead, he makes the case for reimagining science itself: it must stop reaching for objective descriptions of physical reality, and instead embrace subjectivity as the indispensable core of all inquiry. Alasdair Craig: How did your experiences with psychedelics get you interested in consciousness?Michael Pollan: One of the things that happens on psychedelics is that they foreground consciousness. What formerly seemed perfectly transparent and ever present—and yet, non-existent, as water is to fish—suddenly you see it. The metaphor I use in the book is that psychedelics sponge the windscreen. Suddenly you realize: wow, there’s a windscreen, there is this phenomenon that’s mediating my relationship to reality. This is not an unusual realization on psychedelics. I think a lot of people are called to think about consciousness after psychedelic experiences. So that was the proximate inspiration for A World Appears: A Journey Into Consciousness (2026).And then there was a more specific way in which psychedelics influence the book. That was a particular experience I had on psilocybin. I had the sensation that the plants in my garden were conscious and returning my gaze, with their own point of view and agency, and I got curious as to how to evaluate an insight like that. I mean, what’s the truth quotient of insights you have on psychedelics? And I was reading William James—who, of course, wrote beautifully about mystical experience—and he said, we can’t judge the metaphysics here, but we should pay attention to two criteria: (1) How useful is it to think this is true? He was a pragmatist, of course. And (2) can we subject it to other ways of knowing to validate it? Because maybe we should treat these insights as hypotheses. And that’s kind of how I approach psychedelics, as a great generator of hypotheses, but they need to be tested against other ways of knowing. And so that led me down this long path exploring the science of plant intelligence and plant sentience.AC: I love your phrase, “smudging the windowpane of conscious experience.” So do you now start to think, actually, even when I’m not on psychedelics, I’m just seeing a screen all the time, which is not reality, but rather is my conscious experience, behind which reality is hidden?MP: Well, you know, not when I’m brushing my teeth and making breakfast! But yes, in meditation, certainly. I mean, one of the things you realize is that my experience happens to be this way now, but it could be another way. And many things can affect it. My morning coffee changes the screen in various ways, sharpens certain things.___The only tool we have to understand consciousness is consciousness.___There’s this wonderful metaphor in Aldous Huxley’s book, The Doors of Perception, where he thinks we channel consciousness, and that what the brain does is edit it, and there’s a reducing valve. And psychedelics open the reducing valve wider. I don’t know that I’m ready to buy into the idea that consciousness exists outside brains, but I do love that metaphor because there are times when you are more conscious than others. I know I’ve switched from window pane to valve, but you know, a camera aperture can open wider or narrower. And I do have a sense of that. I have a sense of when I’m being less conscious, and when I’m being more conscious, by which I mean, you know, more present, taking in more sensory information. So when you start thinking about consciousness as a matter of degree, that changes things also.I think when we scroll on social media, obviously, we’re conscious. But minimally so, because we don’t have to generate our own thoughts. We’re basically taking these little hits from other people and thinking their thoughts.The process of writing this book made me kind of relativize everyday consciousness as just one type, which is exactly what William James said. Normal consciousness is one type, separated by the flimsiest of screens from the other types.AC: If we stick with the metaphor of the smudge on the window that you get when you take psychedelics, it seems like we’re saying that consciousness has become like an object that you’re looking at, right? You’re looking at the smudge and that just is consciousness. But sometimes we’ll talk about consciousness as a state that you’re in, rather than an object you can perceive. You’re either conscious or you’re not conscious. So it’s difficult to really know what sort of thing we’re talking about when we talk about consciousness, right?MP: Yeah. When you say that consciousness is an object, what’s the subject? Consciousness also? The only tool we have to understand consciousness is consciousness. So we’re in a closed loop and when we get a perspective on consciousness, we’re not achieving any distance from it. That’s one of the problems with studying consciousness. Science is predicated on an objective, God’s eye view of things, and you never get that. There’s no such thing. SUGGESTED VIEWING The brain filters consciousness With Àlex Gómez-Marín But, yeah, there is this sense, I think, that consciousness is something you can approach. Certainly, when you’re writing and trying to recreate a conscious experience, it’s a fiction, but you’re standing back from it, and looking at it. But there’s no real subject-object distinction.AC: That’s so interesting, because when philosophers start talking about consciousness, they often talk about what they call “qualia”, which is their word for the felt experience of, say, the color red. And I think that way of speaking often makes us think of the qualia as an object, which you can see out there: the redness of red. But, as you say, we also want to collapse the subject-object distinction when we talk about consciousness. So there’s something strange going on here…MP: Oh, yeah, there are many strange things going on! *AC: Let’s talk about the varieties of consciousness. Apart from perceptions, there are, pains, emotions, thoughts, and so on. What is it that holds all this diversity together so that they all count as instances of consciousness? What is it that they all have in common?MP: Yeah, that’s a really good question. I mean, there is sensory information, right? Which we perceive coming from the world outside ourselves. And then there’s internal information, which is what’s called interoception. And this is very important too. This is where feelings come from—what are sometimes called homeostatic feelings—that are intended to get the brain to keep us in these narrow ranges of temperature and glucose and so on. That’s a very important part of consciousness. And according to some researchers, who I think are probably right, this is where consciousness begins, with these very primal feelings, like hunger and thirst and warmth and itch, and things like that. And then there’s this third thing, which is our thinking about thinking.And what holds all this together is, I think, the sense of self. Consciousness generates a self: it is probably an organizing principle. All this stuff is happening to the self. It’s a construct, I think, but it is very useful. It can connect all these different streams of consciousness to a single being or a place, metaphorically speaking.* AC: The first half of your book is about the science of consciousness. Is consciousness just another thing, like black holes or the origin of life, which we don’t yet understand, but which we should have every hope that science will one day get to the bottom of, or is there something special about consciousness that makes this unlikely?MP: It depends how you define science. As we define science now, it’s going be very difficult. Science since Galileo has had a set of rules or assumptions, which is that the proper remit of science is to deal with the objective, quantifiable, third-person world. And the physical sciences have done amazing work under that set of limitations. Galileo—for tactical reasons, not for philosophical reasons—said science should not deal with the soul, which at the time was what consciousness was considered to be. So what is subjective, what is qualitative, what is first person, we’re going to leave to the church, he said. And this was a good agreement, and it probably kept many scientists from getting burned at the stake. But it leaves science in an awkward spot, now that it wants to venture into that territory of qualities, of first-person experience. And I don’t think it has the proper tools. I think it will have to add to its toolkit in some way, and find a way to bring in phenomenology, or lived experience and introspection, which science is usually dismissive of.The challenge—we alluded to it earlier—is that the only tool you have to study consciousness with is consciousness. And what I mean by that is, the whole scientific enterprise is a manifestation of consciousness. As much as scientists like to flatter themselves with this idea that they attain a godlike perspective on what they study, when it comes to consciousness, there’s no such thing. And it’s fine for all the things you can step outside of and study from that perspective. But two areas it won’t work are consciousness and cosmology.___It could be that we live in this anomaly of not believing nature is conscious. And maybe psychedelics are teaching us something we’ve forgotten.___With cosmology, too, you have to study the universe from inside the universe. It’s not that cosmologists haven’t made progress. We know a lot about the age of the universe and expansion and things like that. But we can’t penetrate what happened before the Big Bang. We just don’t have the tools because we can’t stand outside.The fact that there are 22 full-scale theories of consciousness tells you all you need to know: we’re kind of lost. And I was surprised to find that we are more lost than I thought we were when I started this. I thought that there’d be leading theories, or that we had experiments that we could conduct that would nail some of this down. And the fact is, we don’t.So, I don’t know if science can solve it. But, of course, we can change the rules of science. A really influential book for me was a book called The Blind Spot, by two physicists, Marcello Gleiser and Adam Frank, and a philosopher, Evan Thompson. It’s a reminder that science is a social practice. It’s organized in a certain way and it can be organized in a different way. But it has this huge blind spot at the center of it, which is its failure to recognize that it is a form of consciousness itself, and it doesn’t have a good way of taking account of lived experience.AC: On the one hand, I think you want to resist traditional dualism, which would say that consciousness is something magical, something supernatural, right? But on the other hand, you’re accepting that there is this division in reality between the stuff that you can investigate objectively and measure, and so on—the stuff that science has been good at finding out about—and consciousness, which, for some reason, you can’t objectively measure. Some would take this to suggest that the dualism is actually right. Is there a way of reconciling these two strands of your thinking?MP: To call it magical is full of value judgement. I mean, you could just say immaterial. The interesting thing is, I think, that intuitively we’re all dualists. And I don’t know whether that’s because we’re children of Descartes and other cultures are less dualist than we are. Or it may be because that’s how consciousness feels. It feels different than the body. It feels separate from the body. But I don’t think we should trust that intuition.AC: So let’s think about ways that science might be changed to get at consciousness. I suppose the starting point would be the way that you begin the second half of your book. You have this nice line from William James, where he says, “We now begin our study of the mind from within.” Could you give us some sense of the ways of studying the mind from within? What does this involve?MP: I don’t know what that science looks like. But one of the points I’m making is that it depends on the humanities. I found that I learned as much, if not more, about consciousness, from reading novels and poetry. There is a sense of the fullness and complexity of consciousness that you don’t get in any scientific account. I interviewed this stream-of-consciousness writer and I approached her as an expert on consciousness, and she is. So I think that dialogue is really important.I’m reading Ben Lerner’s new novel, Transcription. Just read the first page of this novel: it’s a man falling asleep on a train, going to conduct an interview, and there is the experience of being in the train, facing backwards, there’s the view outside, but there’s a reflection of himself through which he’s seeing outside. There’s the memory of dropping his kids off at school. All this is going on in one moment of consciousness. Scientists aren’t going anywhere near that. But I think it’s useful for them to think about. That’s where we’re trying to go: like, how does such a layered experience happen? You know, it also makes you wonder, could a computer ever do this? And it gives you some doubt.*AC: Before we get to computers, perhaps we could talk briefly about plants. How did you come to feel that they are sentient?MP: Well, it was a psychedelic experience, and it’s not unusual on psychedelics. In fact, there’ve been studies about how people become animists during psychedelic experience. Their belief in animism arises after a single psychedelic experience.You know, most scientists would say this is all a myth. But we have only 400 years of the age of enlightenment and science. Before that, we were animists, and if you go around the world, most indigenous cultures are still animists, and children are animists, by and large, until they go to school. So it could be that we live in this anomaly of not believing nature is conscious. And maybe psychedelics are teaching us something we’ve forgotten.As I said, I wanted to test this idea, and see whether there was conventional scientific evidence for it. And there’s fascinating work going on in a field that calls itself—in a rather cheeky way—plant neurobiology. These are people who fully realize there are no neurons in plants, but they’re trolling conventional botanists! And they’re doing experiments that are demonstrating that plants can learn and remember, which is kind of amazing: how do you store a memory without neurons? They’re finding plants that can solve problems, that can hear and see. In fact, they have 20 senses to our five or six. For example, a bean plant looking for something to twine, and given a pole within eight inches or so of it, knows where that pole is and will aim its spiraling reach at that pole. What is that about? Is it bouncing signals off of it?One of the spookiest things is the fact that the same anesthetics that put us out put plants out. You might think that plants are already out, but they’re not. They’re just slow. If you take a plant with a fast behavior, like a Venus flytrap, and give it an anesthetic, it will stop reacting. So you have to ask yourself, what is lost when the plant is anaesthetized? Some state of alertness, of awareness, of its environment, of reactivity. I’m not prepared to call that consciousness, but maybe it’s sentience—which is a simpler form of consciousness, and involves the ability to sense what’s going on in your environment and assess what’s good and bad for you and act appropriately. That may be a universal quality of life.AC: Let’s turn from plants to AI. You point out that LLMs are trained on the internet rather than direct interactions with reality. You put this really nicely when you say the internet is not the world so much as a shadow cast by the world. So LLMs are living in this kind of shadow world, or in Plato’s cave, as you put it. What’s the significance of this for AI consciousness and moral consideration? And, to recall the beginning of our conversation, if we’re stuck behind a veil or screen of consciousness, are we also stuck in a kind of shadow world?MP: I don’t think they’re the same shadow worlds because our world includes nature and other people. And even if it’s mediated in some ways... There is a reality out there, and we are in relation to it, through consciousness. There’s friction with it. What’s missing from the LLMs is that friction with the real world. There’s more to the world than human representation, which is what they’re dealing with. And that means that so far, AI is a cultural technology for combining thoughts we’ve already had. SUGGESTED VIEWING Cracking the code for thought With Roger Penrose, Sabrina Gonzalez Pasterski, Max Tegmark, Güneş Taylor Genuine creativity is more than collage. A lot of what AI does now is tantamount to collage, putting this with that and you know, that’s part of art, certainly. But there are also genuinely new ideas that come into the world that don’t come in through manipulating the representations we already have. So it remains to be seen whether AIs can be truly creative in that more radical sense.But my arguments against AI becoming conscious have to do with the fact that the idea of AI consciousness is based on this faulty metaphor that the brain is a computer. There are dimensions in which the brain is like a computer—it certainly does its share of computation. But computers have this sharp distinction between hardware and software, and brains don’t. In a brain, hardware and software are identical. Every memory is a physical change to the brain. Brains are not interchangeable in the way computers are. So this idea that you could take the consciousness out and somehow run it on another substrate, a silicon substrate, seems foolhardy.Anyway, it’s a more extended argument, and I may be wrong. And when we move to computers that aren’t based on silicon—neuromorphic computers and things like that—all bets may be off.AC: Regarding your point about LLMs being stuck in the world of our representations—the internet or whatever—and not being able to interact with reality, are these representations, the world of the internet, themselves part of reality? We’ve created the internet, but it’s still a real thing that exists. And so while the LLMs may be trapped within that part of reality, they’re nevertheless within reality and interacting with it and so on. So it’s not obvious that there’s a barrier there to them becoming conscious and being creative.MP: Yeah, I mean, if our consciousness is built out of human culture, which is what we’re talking about with all those representations. But I tend to think consciousness comes a bit more out of nature and friction with the natural world, but...AC: So there’s a fundamental divide between the natural world and human artefacts?MP: And we lose track of that, and especially people in this computer world. You know, the people who are creating these AI systems, my guess is they’ve been into video games since the age of three, and they didn’t go outside a lot. And their own contact with nature is somewhat limited. I could be wrong, it’d be a very interesting thing to ask, all the wizards of AI, whether they like to go fishing and hiking and do things like that. Or were they on computers from a very early age? I interviewed Blake Lemoine, the Google engineer who came to believe that LaMDA, the Google LLM out at the time, was conscious and deserved personhood. It was very clear that he didn’t see a distinction between this bubble in which he lived and the real world. And I think we’ve all been distanced from the natural world, and this is taking us even further away. But it’s still there, you know, and we still have bodies, and we’re still mortal, and we don’t live in a simulation.AC: I think that’s a great place to finish. Michael Pollan, thank you very much!
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